The British Caving Association

Geocache in Winnats Head Cave, doesn't seen like a good idea to me, your thoughts please.
See link for details......

Check this out and tell me its not a BAD idea!!!!!
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_de ... ?ID=390731

Just remove it, then. (I would).

I can't see that there could be a problem with this - the geocache listing clearly states the difficulty and the danger in entering the cave - so it's unlikely that people who can't deal with caves will go for it.
it's not like people are going to risk their bits for this cache without having done a bit of thinking now is it?

Is it a case of a couple of people not wanting non cavers entering the dark places in Castleton?
Or, (more likely) is it down to the 'Guests' who posted the previous comments (and this thread) mixing up opinions and politics as an extension to the geocaching forum??

Whatever it is, i'll let my feeling be known - this cache should stay.

Further more, a note for the caving community - please be aware that most geocachers (myself included) spend time and effort in improving and clearing up the locations we visit and place caches in.

Thats all for now!

It is a simple case of trying to avoid a precedent leading to proliferation; if the geocache stays in situ and becomes known as an "extreme" one to gain to such an extent that achieving it brings kudos then it is a simple step to imagine further cave-located geocaches coming into being. What next? - cave geocaching? - the easy/medium/hard parts of every major cave system with a "proof I've been there"/orienteering stamp?

I believe the geocache should be removed.

drs wrote:I can't see that there could be a problem with this - the geocache listing clearly states the difficulty and the danger in entering the cave - so it's unlikely that people who can't deal with caves will go for it.
it's not like people are going to risk their bits for this cache without having done a bit of thinking now is it?

drs wrote:Further more, a note for the caving community - please be aware that most geocachers (myself included) spend time and effort in improving and clearing up the locations we visit and place caches in.

I have nothing against those who wish to take part in geocaching and from some of the comments on the geocaching website as linked in a previous message, at least participants seem to be conservation-minded in removing rubbish.

However, I think encouraging those who have no caving exprience nor appreciation of the possible dangers (the geocaching website mentions taking a torch and a spare plus be prepared for mud, etc. - hardly the most comprehensive list of requirements!) into caves is *not* a good idea.

I have noted this and will be raising the matter formally with Derbyshire Caving Association members at their next Council Meeting on 1st. July. It may be that DCA itself will wish to take some action and make its members' views known to those responsible.

My personal feeling is that this is not a good idea and that Winnatts Head Cave, of all places, is a singularly stupid place to do this for reasons which will be obvious to most cavers.

There are lots of issues here,

future negotiation could be affected.

rescue organisations taking risks, to bring out untrained people. You could need rescuing at tghe same time from elsewhere!

conservation

hijacking caving negotiated agreements

I'm noit agaist people learning to cave, but it should be done in a controlled waty, through clubs and organisations with the skills and knowledge

Hi

This is also being discussed at UKcaving.com.

I notice that the site has a contact form - where you can advise them of any inappropriately placed caches and they can indeed remove them from their website.

I have emailed DCRO, DCA and BCA alerting them to this and requested them to write to geocache.com

I included the DCA access officer on the mail - he might want to go and have a quiet word with the farmer about this too.

I also spotted this http://www.gagb.org.uk/guidelines/guidelines.php
and emailed them too as its clearly against their guidelines.

The matter is now being dealt with by both DCA and BCA in consulation with the Chairman of the geocaching organisation. DCA's Access and Conservation Officers are involved and we hope it will be possible to settle this peaceably.

It may be a bad idea to approach the farmer at Winnats Head Farm because the cave itself may actually be on National Trust land - there is no parking on the verges in the Pass and the farmer makes his farmyard available for cavers who pay a small fee. The main concern is that other caves in the Pass where problems have been created by inappropriate use have are now gated and you have to obtain permission in adavnce and collect a key from the N.T. office. We would not want this to happen at Winnats Head Cave so we are trying to keep things low profile while it's sorted.

Thanks to those who have made their views known. I'll make sure that the outcome of the negotiations is posted.

DCA has sent the following email to the Chairman of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain:

“Following discussions with organisations involved in conservation and access in caving, Derbyshire Caving Association, the British Caving Association and the British Cave Research Association:

“The unanimous view is that we should ask that the geocache in Winnats Head cave be removed. Further, we would ask that the general guidelines advertised by your association should state that caves should not be used for siting a geocache.”

We have also provided GAGB with detailed reasons for this recommendation relating to potential access problems, conservation issues and the particular issues relating to Winnats Head Cave.

We have received a positive reply from the Chairman of GAGB and now await action from the appropriate people.

Is there a general guideline for geocaching? - a principle ought to be that geocaches should only be placed in locations which are safely reached by standard walkers equipped with their GPS devices; any location requiring specialist equipment or techniques should be ruled out of order.

Canda@CSCC wrote:Is there a general guideline for geocaching? - a principle ought to be that geocaches should only be placed in locations which are safely reached by standard walkers equipped with their GPS devices; any location requiring specialist equipment or techniques should be ruled out of order.

Some daft responses here !!
Geocaching is a pastime that participants do so entirely at their own risk. Listed caches give information about the risk and special equipment/ skills required. Participants are left in no doubt as to what is required of them.
As an mountaineer and occasional caver I have no problem with these caches being left in a cave. What right have we to asses as to the rights and wrongs of individuals entering a cave system! Do we try and ascertain the compentancy levels of our collegues who go caving?
Do we actually own the right to decide who should go underground? -- I think not and those posting negative comments should rethink their motives for their interest in participating in the caving 'pastime' !!

Anonymous wrote:It is a simple case of trying to avoid a precedent leading to proliferation; if the geocache stays in situ and becomes known as an "extreme" one to gain to such an extent that achieving it brings kudos then it is a simple step to imagine further cave-located geocaches coming into being. What next? - cave geocaching? - the easy/medium/hard parts of every major cave system with a "proof I've been there"/orienteering stamp?

I believe the geocache should be removed.

what right have you got to keep the fascinating opportunity of exploring underground to yourself??
Not sure that you are in the right game here!!? selfish or what ??

Keef wrote:Geocache in Winnats Head Cave, doesn't seen like a good idea to me, your thoughts please.
See link for details......

Check this out and tell me its not a BAD idea!!!!!
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_de ... ?ID=390731

Had a look at some of the log notes from the now archived Geocahe and I see that some cachers finding it have actually cleared up some of the litter and crap around the entrance and within.

Perhaps this is an example to the caving community??